Oldfield interview on handgun control and licencing
Grant Goldman program
2SM radio
11 May 2001
GRANT GOLDMAN: When I was on radio in Adelaide there was this bloke at some high school listening in to me, which indicates I'm a fair bit older than him, or maybe he repeated a few years, from One Nation, David Oldfield.
So, Andrew Denton, no show.
DAVID OLDFIELD: No show.
GRANT GOLDMAN: He still has five minutes. We said 2.15 but it doesn't look like he's going to front.
DAVID OLDFIELD: He hasn't been very forthcoming. I've written personally to him three times as well as issuing the press releases and I've warned him each time the press releases were going out and he just really has not been forthcoming. The man simply will not back up his statements by being challenged.
GRANT GOLDMAN: OK, well let's disseminate what he said. What was the exact statement that Andrew Denton made on his programme about gun control?
DAVID OLDFIELD: It was actually in relation to when he was down in the CBD aiming a gunsight at people as they walked through the streets and trying to give the impression that everybody in Sydney was in this position where they could suddenly be shot dead in the street by someone wielding a handgun which is just the greatest load of bunk and scaremongering that one could ever possibly imagine and everything which is factually available shows those statements to be nonsense.
GRANT GOLDMAN: That sounds like a cartoon, doesn't it?
DAVID OLDFIELD: In particular, well, maybe what Mr Denton should do is stick to cartoons and stay away from serious things because he's a very funny man, you know.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Maybe, in all honesty, maybe he doesn't really care about gun control. Maybe it was just his attempt at humour for the day.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Some of us may have found it funny but I'm sure all of the legal licensed firearm owners, who are law abiding citizens, really didn't find it very funny. He particularly said that guns, handguns were freely available to anyone with a grudge or with a grievance, which is nonsense.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Completely incorrect.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Completely incorrect.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Give us the legal rights on that.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Of course, quite clearly, and I was a pistol shooter myself and I'm about to start again, quite frankly, handgun control has, for many, many years, been very, very extreme in the sense of licensing and in the sense of membership of clubs, required number of shoots, the storage of the handguns themselves. You must have a safe affixed to the floor or a wall at home that's inspected by police before you're actually issued with a licence to keep those firearms. For example, I'm about to rejoin a pistol club and they've told me that even though I've owned firearms before of considerable calibre, including the ones of the kind that Mr Denton is trying to get banned, despite that and all my past experience, because I haven't shot for a few years, they want me to undertake a three month probation period where I won't be allowed to shoot anything but an air pistol.
GRANT GOLDMAN: That's conservative but obviously a very essential thing to do.
DAVID OLDFIELD: It's very sensible and the type of activity which is expected to be undertaken by anyone who is going to start shooting. The clubs, the dealers, the people involved in the shooting industry, are very cognisant of all of the issues that will be raised by people wanting to have a go and they're very careful that the rules are strict and adhered to.
GRANT GOLDMAN: What do the Coalition for Gun Control people want to achieve?
DAVID OLDFIELD: Essentially, they're obviously going to want to achieve the removal of all guns from society which some people -
GRANT GOLDMAN: All these shooting clubs that are attended by reasonable and honest, good living people, will have their firearms just taken away from them.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Exactly. Hundreds of thousands of people. They took firstly semi-automatic centre fire firearms. There's been no real appreciable effect in that, in fact, there's been a number of statements by various authorities in different states that the whole scenario of the gun buyback in general was a complete failure. In fact, they only recovered something like 2% of the type of weapons they set out to recover in the first place. It has to be understood, the saying, as simple as it is, could not be more correct and that is that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them and all of the historical data shows that to be the case. Mr Denton also made this claim, that last year in New South Wales alone, 500 handguns were stolen. Now, all the inquiries that I've made, including inquiries with the Police Minister's office, is that that statement is just not able to be backed up.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Stolen from where?
DAVID OLDFIELD: He says just stolen in New South Wales. Now, all the inquiries that I've made show that the only people who seem to think that's happened is the Coalition for Gun Control. The Minister's office, in preliminary inquiries, had no idea that this had happened, no police that I've spoken to know anything about it, nor do the SSAA or any people in the shooting fraternity. It just simply hasn't happened. It's just a statement that's been made and of course, Mr Denton, having made the statement, is not here to have that statement challenged and to tell us where that information comes from.
GRANT GOLDMAN: I've got something on the line here that apparently will back Andrew up. I believe Chris on the line. Yes, Chris?
CALLER: I only found this out last night because our house has been broken into a few times round our way. My next door neighbour decided to join a gun club, to see if he can get sort of protection or whatever. But when he joined it, now the club knew full well what was going on. He joined the club and they actually offered him, put him onto somebody who could sell him an unregistered gun and apparently half the people in the club have got these and they take them around in their cars or whatever.
GRANT GOLDMAN: But that's a pretty irresponsible club that would do that, surely.
CALLER: If that's just one, how would you know how many more are doing it? When I heard that last night, that sent a shiver down the back of my spine because I thought, my God, what is going on?
GRANT GOLDMAN: We'll see what David has to say about that.
DAVID OLDFIELD: It should send a shiver down everyone's spine and it's a perfect example of you can't believe everything you hear. In fact, if you don't see it for yourself, especially where this sort of information is concerned, and hear it for yourself, I wouldn't believe it at all. I would suggest, sir, that if what you're saying is true you take a stroll right now from wherever you are to your local police station and report exactly that incident, who was involved, which club is involved and I think you'll fairly quickly find out that either you are making this up yourself or the person who told you is making it up.
GRANT GOLDMAN: This is a regular listener to my programme so I don't think he's making it up but obviously someone's given him a bum steer.
DAVID OLDFIELD: There's lots of bum steers out there where this sort of information is concerned, so my apologies if you've been told the information but I can guarantee you that there is no prospect whatsoever that any gun club in this country is going to steer someone towards the purchase of an unregistered firearm. It's the sort of thing that people who are involved in supposed gun control, the anti-gun lobby, will just blurt as gossip and if you tell something often enough, of course any lie suddenly becomes truth without rebuttal. Here's the rebuttal. Go to the police.
CALLER: Am I still on air? I do trust my next door neighbour a lot. He's never given me bum steers or anything before but I couldn't believe it and he was surprised, he was shocked himself. I then put him onto somebody.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Then you're a good responsible citizen and so is your next door neighbour. You should have gone to the police, as David suggests.
CALLER: I will follow this up. I'll get him together and ask him what's going on but look, I'm not mentioning any names or places because I don't want to drop him in, you can understand that, but it might be worth pulling him to one side and saying, well, you know, it should really be reported, shouldn't it?
GRANT GOLDMAN: Let me know how you go, will you?
CALLER: I'll do that, Grant, yes.
GRANT GOLDMAN: There you go. You've got situations like that, I suppose and, once again, stories fly, don't they?
DAVID OLDFIELD: That's the problem, Grant. A lot of people tend to think that where there's smoke there's fire but I'm sure you know and things that I know about you and things you know about me, that often things are just made up from scratch with absolutely no substance whatsoever.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Two inches becomes 12.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Or no inches becomes a foot.
GRANT GOLDMAN: That's true.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Exactly that. Rumours and gossip start from nothing. There is not necessarily always fire where there may be seen to be smoke and the gentleman that just rang in, it is incumbent on him as a law abiding citizen, to make that report but I would suggest to you that someone is telling him tales.
GRANT GOLDMAN: I would say so. Let's hope so. No Andrew Denton yet. Come on, Andy. Andy, where are you, son? You say that the Federal Government gun buyback scheme was a failure.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Absolutely. It cost a fortune. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Many of the guns that were turned in were, of course, virtually useless. It was almost an old guns for new programme. A lot of people, of course, turned in the guns which were -
GRANT GOLDMAN: I have an uncle in the bush who had this dirty old thing sitting on the side of the desk and he said, oh, I'll get rid of that, and he got some money for it.
DAVID OLDFIELD: They did and a lot of people who got the money for it then went out and purchased a brand new firearm of the new legal type so it certainly didn't reduce the number of firearms. One of the crazy stories, for example, was that half a million dollars was received by people who turned in 20 millimetre aircraft cannons, that is like the cannon you would take out of a Spitfire. Actually, Spitfire's 50 calibre machine guns but a 20 millimetre cannon that you would take out of a fighter plane.
GRANT GOLDMAN: It begs the question, how did they get hold of it?
DAVID OLDFIELD: They're eight feet long. Try putting one under your coat and walking down George Street. They're eight feet long and of course they weren't serviceable anyway, and that was through the Northern Territory that they were turned in. The gun buyback was a joke. But with regards to - and there's been no appreciable change with regards to anything to do with firearms anyway and it's well and truly documented in the ABS, in the Australian Bureau of Statistics, that everything to do with firearms, homicide, suicide, etcetera, had been in very serious and steady decline all the way through from 1979 through to when the firearms themselves were taken back by the Government, at a time, through the 1980s in particular, where firearms were very prolific on the basis of a $2 licence so the buyback really hasn't worked.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Let's be positive on behalf of your party and yourself, of course, and people who have guns, and they are generally, in the main, responsible people who actually need them, it's not there for fun, most of the time. I know it's fun and it's a sport for you but for the people I grew up with in the bush it was very necessary to have. Now, let's be positive. How do we take the criminal element out of ownership of guns? Is it possible?
DAVID OLDFIELD: It's a very difficult question. Someone like Commissioner Ryan would be more qualified to answer such a question and if we were to think about what Commissioner Ryan had to say himself, that was quite simply that firearms were related to the criminal element. It was a simple scenario of that. If I say particularly, Mr Ryan, the Commissioner of Police, because bear in mind the Coalition for Gun Control want to take firearms, want to take handguns, particularly this issue, from people who are law abiding citizens who have those firearms, those handguns for competition purposes. And Mr Ryan said that he was keen yesterday to allay fears of the broader community and said that the use of handguns was largely limited to the criminal world. Most of the shootings that have taken place have not quite been random, they've been for a specific purpose. People walking about the street and going about their daily business shouldn't be afraid of these problems which flies in the face, of course, of Andrew Denton standing in busy CBD Sydney and putting a gunsight on people and saying this could happen to you any day. I'm afraid our own Commissioner for Police does not agree.
GRANT GOLDMAN: In my opinion, that little stunt was just a comedy thing and I'm sure he couldn't possibly be looking at it as a responsible statement about gun control.
DAVID OLDFIELD: I suppose it's one of those things - no, it's not responsible and that's the point. It is just scaremongering and if we look, however, at - are we expecting to hear from the Coalition for Gun Control?
GRANT GOLDMAN: I thought we were but nothing yet.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Not yet? Well, if we look at a couple of statements made by the Coalition for Gun Control, in particular Samantha Lee, only this month, actually 26/4, so last month on the Today programme, well we've seen a dramatic increase in homicides using a hand gun. Well, yes, that may be the case, however, the Australian Institute of Criminology, the figures themselves, show very clearly that in the same period of time that Miss Lee is speaking of, not a single registered handgun was used in any of those homicides. In other words, all of the guns used were illegal guns being used by people committing crimes who were illegal activity involved themselves.
GRANT GOLDMAN: They're criminals.
DAVID OLDFIELD: So what use is there taking the guns away from those people who use them legitimately? These statements like handguns are easy to get. Yes, they're very easy to get. All you have to do is join a club and have no previous criminal activity. As we noted earlier, it's not just a matter of that. There are safety courses, there are, if you like, a cooling off type period. You can't just join a club and get a gun. You have to go through courses, you have to go through a period where you would be not in possession of a firearm yourself until the club determined that you were able to do so.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Is that right?
DAVID OLDFIELD: Oh yes.
GRANT GOLDMAN: So you can't just go along and buy a gun, they'll say, OK, this is the gun that you're going to purchase, it's not going to be handed over to you until more tests are done about your person?
DAVID OLDFIELD: It is absolutely up to the club to determine when they will issue you a certificate to be able to then purchase a firearm. Upon that, then you of course have to have your safety procedures, such as your safe, in place and that has to be then checked by the police before you're even able to have a firearm at home.
GRANT GOLDMAN: What about a personal psych analysis to see if you're the kind of person who could actually have a gun anyway?
DAVID OLDFIELD: It's a good idea. I'm not aware of such a thing being in place but you would hope that reasonably, and anyone who's ever attended a proper firearm or a proper handgun club would be aware that you fairly quickly, during the months of training and practice and supervision, you fairly quickly start to weed out the people who are a danger to themselves and others.
GRANT GOLDMAN: I know the first people out of the police academies are the ones who say, when do we get to play with the guns?
DAVID OLDFIELD: The other thing, of course, Grant, is this situation of the black market. Guns are available freely on the basis of those guns being illegal in the first place, not from people who legally own them.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Could I go and buy a gun anywhere in Sydney right now?
DAVID OLDFIELD: I suspect that if you were in contact with the criminal element you could. You wouldn't be able to buy a legally registered gun, quite clearly, but if you were in contact with the criminal element I'd suspect you could and it shouldn't escape people that containers that come into Australia, of the containers that arrive in Australia, only three in every 100 are inspected by Customs. So people wonder why drugs get into the country. Guns will get in exactly the same way.
GRANT GOLDMAN: We keep coming back to this. I've got a couple of callers that call in on a regular basis. We talk about Customs all the time and how they're hamstrung in their efforts to try and stop anything.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Yes.
GRANT GOLDMAN: And that's just another example, guns as well as the drug scene.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Let me just give you this one statement with regards to the Australian Institute of Criminology. Between 1 July 1997 and 30 June 1999, which are the latest figures available, not one handgun used in a homicide was registered. All them illegal guns, all used by criminals, no relationship to law abiding and respectful handgun owners. I think one of the most particular points of the argument which must be put across, and I've found it interesting that the Coalition for Gun Control were concerned that the Police Minister, Paul Whelan, apparently was not terribly interested in changing laws, according to reports. You can understand why he would not want to change laws regarding hand guns because acting responsibly, you wouldn't. There simply is no evidence.
GRANT GOLDMAN: So he was quite correct in his statements.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Absolutely, because there is no evidence that any change to a law is going to do anything about a person who breaks laws. The criminals are there, there are more handguns in criminals' hands, but they have nothing to do with the non-criminal elements, the people who use them.
GRANT GOLDMAN: That statement basically acknowledges the fact that the buyback was a bit of a failure.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Absolutely.
GRANT GOLDMAN: That cost us a lot of money.
DAVID OLDFIELD: I think, Grant, one of the most particular things is if we just look at history. History tells us what takes place. The stats are there. The figures are available. If you look at the English experience and the Dunblane massacre, a terrible situation with schoolchildren back in 1996, where a person with a history of mental illness did commit murder with handguns. No question about it whatsoever, but when you look at that experience and you look at what's happened before and since, using the British figures themselves, using the material that's available, through the British Government, it's very clear that the removal of handguns just didn't work. Let's look at what happened. In 1996 you had the Dunblane massacre in England. You had a situation there where by 1997, and mind you, in 1996 after the massacre the Government actually knocked back a total ban but finally in the middle of 1997 the British Government decided they would completely ban handguns.
GRANT GOLDMAN: What made them change their mind, then?
DAVID OLDFIELD: I believe it was the change of government and then the new government obviously wanting to ride on the populist hysteria that was being invoked by the nonsense of people who are so anti law abiding gun owners, they then introduced the new law and they banned all handguns. All handguns completely. There were 200,000 handguns handed in at a cost of close to $A400 million. The cost of compensation close to $A400 million. But what's happened since? Since that, if we look at the year 1996 when the handguns were still available, at the time of the massacre itself, and now look at the most recent figures which are the 1999-2000 figures, homicide with a handgun in England, handguns mind you which are no longer able to be possessed by law abiding citizens, they're not in society any more, homicide has increased 40%. If you look at attempted murder or other acts which include wounding and endangering life, use of a handgun, not now able to be owned by anyone legally, has increased 32%. A horrifying category is the "other" category, which relates to also violence against persons using handguns, has increased 160%. Robbery with the use of a handgun has increased 11%. And here's an interesting one: burglary. People now breaking into homes using a handgun with the full knowledge that people in the homes do not have guns.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Cannot have a gun, yes.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Has increased 75% since handguns were taken from the law abiding members of society. The English police now are arming themselves.
GRANT GOLDMAN: And they never have.
DAVID OLDFIELD: They never have. They are now actually arming themselves with handguns in different counties in England as a result of the increasing crime with handguns since handguns were banned.
GRANT GOLDMAN: So the buyback has just encouraged the criminals, saying well, nobody's going to stop us now.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Same old situation.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Open slather.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Same old situation. Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have them and the proof is there in the English experience where they have banned handguns and every conceivable crime with a handgun is through the roof.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Unbelievable. That's the full stop on that. We've got no appearance at all by Andrew Denton.
DAVID OLDFIELD: And none by the Coalition for Gun Control.
GRANT GOLDMAN: No.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Should we be surprised because in the face of challenge, using the actual facts, none of their arguments stack up and they're not willing to meet anyone who might have those facts and be able to, shall I say, shoot down the nonsense that they put up.
GRANT GOLDMAN: Well done. Well spoken. Thanks, David.
DAVID OLDFIELD: Thank you, Grant.
GRANT GOLDMAN: David Oldfield from One Nation, our special guest this afternoon. Well, Andrew was supposed to be coming. I had the cucumber sandwiches and lemonade. Nothing. No appearance. We'll have to have them ourselves.
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