NSW Police Minister Paul Whelan interview on handgun crime rise
Compere: Sally Loane
ABC 702 2BL radio
27 April 2001
SALLY LOANE: If you have a feeling that the incidence of crime and murder using hand guns is on the rise in this city, you'd be right. Between 1995 and 1999 the proportion of homicides involving a hand gun leapt from 13% to 42%. Now, these are official figures from the Australian Institute of Criminology.
We had another terrible death on Anzac Day. You saw that in the papers this morning. A young up and coming football star, Jai Jago, was shot dead in a street at Hurlstone Park for his mobile phone, and he was shot with a hand gun.
Coincidentally yesterday the National Coalition for Gun Control launched a graphic campaign in Martin Place, they're pushing for a ban on semi automatic hand guns which are still legal apparently in this State and an estimated 300,000 of them exist in Australia.
I think a few questions that many of us want to know is how do people, specifically how do very young people, teenagers, get hold of these guns. Joining me on the line is the Minister for Police in New South Wales, Paul Whelan. Mr Whelan, good morning.
PAUL WHELAN: Good morning Sally.
SALLY LOANE: Are you concerned about a growing black market trade in hand guns?
PAUL WHELAN: I've always been concerned. I'm concerned about the black market trade in any illegal activity whether it be that or drugs. And hand guns have been registered and strictly licensed in New South Wales since 1926.
SALLY LOANE: There's plenty more of them out there that aren't registered obviously.
PAUL WHELAN: That's the illegal market. And we've got the toughest gun laws both for legitimate firearm hand guns and for those illegally obtained.
SALLY LOANE: How do people obtain them illegally, is it over the net?
PAUL WHELAN: In a black market. It can be they're brought into Australia. Remember all these hand guns are made out of Australia so they are all imported into Australia. They're either coming through Customs or being brought in luggage, just the same as any other material is brought into Australia. So until we can satisfactorily close that loophole and I have to give credit to the Federal Government.
After I've made representations to them they've amended the Customs regulations to limit the number of hand guns coming into Australia. Because they are largely coming into New South Wales, falling into criminal hands and being used on the streets of Sydney and now are used on the streets throughout Australia.
But we've done - substantial improvements in those laws nationally have been achieved in that regard.
SALLY LOANE: The illegal one's still must be coming in somewhere. Obviously they're coming through Customs aren't they, without being detected.
PAUL WHELAN: We would suspect that that's where they're coming from through the Customs system or through the import system. And that's where they would be coming from. But in New South Wales we're in the position of having to deal with the issues as they are on the ground, as they are on the street.
And the Police Service formed a firearms desk which is exactly what it is. They’ve had 17 arrests, they've had 294 charges and that's been very successful. They've confiscated 500 weapons on the street thus far and that's continuing.
Recently from the proceeds of confiscated assets of criminals we purchased the Ibis system which is in effect the DNA for guns to enable the police to track down the parentage of the gun, where it came from and who's likely to have it. It's a DNA very sophisticated system that can DNA the cartridges and the guns and any part of the gun, bullet and fragments, to enable the police investigations to be further skilled so as to help them.
SALLY LOANE: It sounds as though it's a bit of I suppose a tip of the iceberg though minister. It sounds a big like the drug trade. You're getting a few but underneath there's thousands and thousands of these things being traded and used everyday.
PAUL WHELAN: I'll concede that it is reactive. But the difficulty about - and it's analogist to drugs as well - heroin and cocaine are imported into Australia. What we have to do is the reality and the reality is on the street and you just can't ignore it being on the street. So you have to provide as tough a penalty as you possibly can.
SALLY LOANE: Are they tough enough in New South Wales do you think? They're not having much of a deterrent affect are they? I mean we're reading constantly about more murders and crime.
PAUL WHELAN: The Bureau of Crime stats would tell you. And Weatherburn says in a very unemotional sense and a state statistician, that a murder rate has been consistent for the past 30 years.
SALLY LOANE: Yes, but the crime involving hand guns has shot up markedly.
PAUL WHELAN: Without a doubt and that's because of the proliferation of illegal hand guns on the streets of Sydney.
SALLY LOANE: What do you think you can do about it?
PAUL WHELAN: I mean there's this proliferation. You've obviously got some measures in place. But it's not enough though, is it?
SALLY LOANE: Certainly we're reacting and taking some very positive measures as I indicated. The Ibis system is helping the police. The fire arms desk is very important for the Police Service. The way it functions has already proven successfully. With 17 arrests and 500 hand guns removed from the community.
We have the strictest gun laws in New South Wales but I'm only talking about legitimate gun users. And just recently the Premier announced (inaudible) a package about Cabramatta. And in that package not only were there drugs in the community but also dealt with the issue of toughening up further firearms control. So increasing the penalties.
SALLY LOANE: Do you think that should be increased to other suburbs, not just Cabramatta. I mean this murder on Anzac Day was in Hurlstone Park.
PAUL WHELAN: It does apply, it's statewide law I'm sorry. It’s just that the Premier made the announcement about Cabramatta. The whole law will apply statewide. But it was more relevant - and more relevant to Cabramatta to any of the other suburbs. But there's an increase to 14 years jail for the possession of an illegal firearm.
I have to say this, I find no reason, individually or as a Police Minister, why anyone would be carrying a hand gun in the street. So as far as I'm concerned the toughest penalties should apply.
SALLY LOANE: Minister, the National Coalition for Gun Control is calling for a ban on semi-automatic hand guns. Now, we already have a ban on semi automatic rifles, why not ban these semi-automatic hand guns, which we're obviously seeing more and more of and they're responsible for murder and crime?
PAUL WHELAN: I'm in favour of the banning of anything that's illegal, whether it's automatic, semi automatic or otherwise. But can I just remind you that in 1996 following Port Arthur, the Prime Minister called a Summit of Police Minister's and that led to the banning of automatic and semi-automatic and military style weapons in Australia. And it took a lot of work to get uniform legislation.
New South Wales led that and they used our legislation as a template for the rest of the nation. We have tougher laws in New South Wales than anywhere else. But at that time in 1996 we didn't deal with the issue of hand guns because they had been regulated and been strictly controlled since 1926.
And there are 19,000 and they're divided into target shooters, and members of pistol clubs. There are 19,000 of those. And there are 8,000 who are security officers in New South Wales who have to go through criminal checks, as do anyone in New South Wales for a hand gun. So there's very rigid controls here in New South Wales. But they've been in here largely since 1926.
SALLY LOANE: But the real problem of course is the proliferation of these things on the black market, as you say. Are you saying look it's pretty much totally a Federal Government issue a Customs issue?
PAUL WHELAN: No, I'm not, it is to a certain extent and you can't kid yourself about that, they're all imported. But I'm anxious and the government is anxious to do anything about decreasing the number of weapons on the street. That's why we've had the firearms desk created. That's why we're spent $3 million bringing the DNA system for guns, Ibis to Australia. We're the only state to have it.
SALLY LOANE: Minister, you're having a firearms legislation review in New South Wales next month, what will you be looking at there? Anything to try and reduce these illegal guns - other measures?
PAUL WHELAN: Yes there certainly will be. And this is on top of the Premiers announced Cabramatta package, which is going to apply of course statewide. But the review is the review of the act. I made a commitment when we introduced the act in July 97 that we'd review it. I've called for submissions and I'm looking at it right now to determine what, if any, further toughening of the provisions are required.
SALLY LOANE: Would you say there needs to be toughening?
PAUL WHELAN: I think on the perimeter, but not anything of a substantial nature at this stage. But I'm still reviewing it, I don't want to pre-empt it either. But I'm looking at it at this stage. But I just repeat we have the toughest laws in any state in Australia in relation to hand guns and we've had it. And we're continuing with the information that we're getting from police on the street. We are positively reacting and very quickly to requests from the police about public safety and about officer safety as well.
SALLY LOANE: All right Minister, thanks for your time. The Minister for Police in New South Wales, Paul Whelan.
We just had a call from a listener who said that apparently during the wharfies strike, 40,000 police issue hand guns went missing. They were intended for an update but they were the wrong ones. They were meant to be sent back to the place of origin, however they went missing presumably into the black market.
This is probably another tip of the iceberg number if estimates are something like 300,000 in Australia. This is just a proportion of that, isn't it?
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