Australian Medical Association calls for tougher gun laws
The Queensland Branch of the Australian Medical Association went on record in the AMAQ Quarterly, December 1995 as calling for tougher gun laws. The then President -elect Dr Eileen Burkett made a considerable contribution to this article and the SSAA requested an interview with her to respond to her opinions. We present the typed transcript of part of that interview. The next time you hear a doctor speak about the firearms issue, ask yourself how much do these people know about the issue? Are they just mouthing the AMA party line and trying desperately to ger their lines right from a script, while simultaneously putting their own name up in the media? Or are they genuinely interested in saving Australian lives?
(Dr Burkett is invited to speak her mind on gun control issues)
EB Now just going through... what were the areas that you were looking at?
SSAA Well, homicide, suicide and accidents.
EB Right... Okay, I'm just getting out my papers, that we put in a submission to the Working Party on Firearms and commented on their paper. What's happened is that the Police Ministers around Australia looked at Firearm Legislation. As you know there is a difference between each state and one of the problems is that this difference allows loopholes in one state so that you allow certain guns in one state and you don't allow them in others, so what happens is that they come into one state and then shift over into another. Um, to give you an idea in regards to semi-automatic rifles which we feel should be banned from use in Australia, I think it's inappropriate that apart from say, military, you know, usage only, or whatever... that, you know, semi-automatic weapons shouldn't be available, that in South Australia there is no restrictions, in Western Australia there is a ban, in Queensland there is no restrictions and so it goes. Now the areas that we felt are important is that in regards to registration that there's an advantage of registering all firearms in the same way that we register cars so that if... you know, if the patient has got a firearm then we can assess the risk of suicide much greater so regularly I have patients who become suicidal, and what I do is assess what their chances are of harming themselves and what we know from a lot of studies overseas and in Australia is that if people have got access to a lethal means of harming themselves their risk of suicide goes up dramatically, whereas if they can't act impulsively then what we find is that we're able to care for them and get them over the depression and they recover.
SSAA Okay, that's suicide.
EB Yep. So that if people registered their firearms and we are able to check, say for example a man comes in and says look I'm feeling depressed and suicidal and this is what's going to happen and ask him about firearms and he denies it and we've got a means of checking whether this is true or not then we would be able to say look if you have a firearm stay in hospital until you are over the depression and we can care for you in a safe environment and that way we prevent harm to him and any harm like this... you know, people think ah, well, if people are depressed they should be allowed to suicide but really suicide not only affects the patient or attempted suicide not only affects the patient but also the whole community and the family, so it really does have a significant effect on the whole community and the family.
SSAA Right. Accidents?
EB In regards to accidents there is a number of things that we'd like looked at. Testing, before people get a licence to have a firearm I feel that it should be like a driving licence and part of the licence should include a demonstrated ability to know what the rules and regulations are as well as the demonstrated ability to have a safety and handling record so, for example, that before you get your firearm licence you have to be able to pass a test and the test would - maybe involve a practical test as well as a written test but should be able... allow to demonstrate the patient to demonstrate that they know how to look after a firearm safely.
SSAA And you've looked into accident rates?
EB Um... In regards accident rates I don't think I've got the figures on me. Here we go. Actually, I do have some here. In the 1979 - 87 there were 689 deaths per year involving firearms, 77% suicide, 15% homicide and 6% were unintentional shootings and that was from the Public Health Association of Australia, those figures. Now the latest figures from the National Injuries Unit indicated a total of 1817 deaths over 3 years 1990 to 1992 so the actual annual rate hasn't changed there.
SSAA That hasn't included suicides?
EB No, well, that's deaths, yeah, so that includes suicides.
SSAA So a considerable number of those people would have been intending to do themselves in?
EB Ah, hm. That's right. If you're looking at these figures is that there is 77% are suicides. The ...ah... so what we would feel would be the important thing to involve is licensing , registration of firearms, training of firearm holders and prohibition of military style firearms.
SSAA Can you demonstrate from any studies that say registration of guns can lower death rates?
EB Well, one of the difficult things is that when you are looking at studies you've got to look at sort of like a control and no control, and so that we really don't have those figures to be able to compare.
SSAA I see.
EB Now when you look around Australia, for example, on checking, I'm pretty sure there is no state that has a registration... ah, you have to be identified as possessing a weapon.
SSAA There's no state which has a...?
EB Has a registration of firearms, most of them have sort of like handguns. Queensland has handguns. They've got ACT here, I've got is all guns. Most states have got everybody has to be licensed before they have a gun, which is good.
SSAA Dr. Burkett, this is a matter of very considerable difficulty for me.
EB Hm... hm...
SSAA Um... The potential here now is for you to be severely embarrassed by what is going to take place. I have all sorts of documentation, NSW Inpatients Statistics data book, some of your recorded speeches, news radio 972 in November, material you have written for the AMAQ...
EB Yes...
SSAA ...and unfortunately I'm afraid you've been led astray to an extraordinary degree. Now, you refer to the Cantor & Slater study and the use of figures in that study is quite incorrect. You've used that in correspondence, and also, as I understand it, on the air to the effect that that study says that the tougher gun laws in Queensland reduced the suicide rate. That's quite incorrect, and in fact the study actually operated by pairing the years and that way didn't have to look at the last year, which showed quite a large rise in the suicide rate after the change of the gun laws in Queensland...
EB I see - with the introduction of cooling periods?
SSAA Yes. Secondly there is a good deal of confusion in what you are saying. On letterhead here I have a statement, the one that you just confirmed, that 15% of firearms deaths are homicides, but on ABC National Radio on the 28th of November you said there were 77% were homicide and that was quite incorrect. Now if you've tried to correct that with them and there is any documentary evidence of that, I'd be very pleased to see it. Lastly, the thing that concerns me most of all, is that in further correspondence, I have you here saying that in NSW alone one third of accidents and injuries are from firearms. Do you have any comment to make on that one?
EB One third of accidents and injuries?
SSAA Yes.
EB Unfortunately, I don't have the figures here for that, I mean the - but it sounds like you are very pro no-legislation
SSAA I'm pro the facts. "In NSW alone firearm injuries make up one third of accidents and injuries." That's from a letter from you of 7th of December. In fact, firearms injuries in NSW make up less than 0.7% of all the hospital admissions due to accident or injury in NSW...
EB What would you like to see? Would you like to see a freedom of access for firearms?
SSAA No, what I would like to do is see the facts put abroad. I'm able to say to you that there are numerous opportunities for anybody who is serious to look at the difference between registered guns and non-registered guns and when you say that we don't have access to non-registration, I believe from what you said before, and I'd have to listen to the tape again, that you're not sure what happens in which state, anyway, and the reality is that there is registration in some states that the police have found against registration in Victoria, and then, in Victoria again...
EB Are you in favour?
SSAA ...the Police Minister said that registration doesn't work. Now, we have overseas data coming out of our ears, places like Israel which are awash with guns, they have almost no gun crime and very little suicide. We have places like Jamaica where it's illegal to own a single bullet where the murder rate is probably six - no, four - times the American rate...
EB Do you favour a lessening of gun legislation?
SSAA My personal opinion doesn't enter into it. What I'm trying to do is offer you the opportunity to meet with the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia, sit down and actually consider the figures without being led astray by a number of people who are giving you information which is simply not going to stand up. Otherwise, I'm afraid - well, if you're prepared to do that, I'd think it would be a good time to tell me now. Are you interested in the facts or are you going to push the AMAQ line?
EB Well, I think the... I mean one of the things that we know from all the studies that show about the sort of risk of suicide is that if we can restrict access to lethal means of suicide, whether that be drugs, or, you know, in the case of sort of drugs over the the last sort of twenty years we have been able to reduce the suicidality and the lethality of the drugs and the same with sort of firearms, you you get a much higher rate in rural suicide because of the access to firearms
SSAA That's, that's - if you can show me a single study that demonstrates that I'll be very impressed. The kinds of studies that people usually refer to are the ones regarding the toxicity in gas in England going back thirty... forty years, or so, and they point to a fall in suicides when gas was made non-toxic and they also neglect to mention that the suicide rates fell worldwide at the same time. Now, if you actually look at these studies, instead of believe what people tell you about them, you'll find that the information that they convey is usually the opposite of what people who are at the moment pushing some kind of a barrow are trying to convey to you.
EB But do you think sort of easing the laws on all gun legislation will make it safer for...?
SSAA Well, that that really isn't the issue. I mean, I'll be happy to debate that with you at any - at any other time, but what I'm saying to you is have you sighted or can you give me references of studies which demonstrate what you are saying now?
EB So have you written to us before, have you... like...?
SSAA No.
EB All right, you said something about you had something on a letterhead...
SSAA Oh, yeah, I'm acting in response - we're going to write about this stance of the AMA and the AMAQ and I've been commissioned, and I'm putting together an article, and to be honest with you, I'm finding exactly the opposite of what people in the media seem to tell me is the case. This idea -
EB What's happened is that somebody's - you haven't written to us and asked for our comments on it but somebody has and that's in response to that letter that we wrote back to that person that you are doing this interview?
SSAA No, I have numerous sources...
EB Alright...
SSAA I've collected as much of your data as I possibly can including the AMAQ - is it Quarterly? - the various .........
EB Yes, that's okay...
SSAA ...The various radio reports and so forth...
EB Sure...
SSAA ...And what I'm simply pointing out is that the facts are incorrect. They are grossly incorrect, and if you're prepared to meet with us very soon and discuss making some kind of a public statement rescinding any part in the gun debate, then I'm sure that your name can be kept out of it, but if not then we are going to go ahead and publish anyway and I think you'll find it extremely embarrassing.
EB Hm...
SSAA Now is there anything that I can tell you, any information I can give you that will make this a little easier for you? We'll be going to press with this I'll be having to submit final copy in a matter of days and if there is anything I can tell you I'll be happy to do so.
EB Well, yep, I think probably, you know, the best idea would be to send what you want to send. I mean, I think if people are keen to reduce the legislation I think that's their opinion and I think, you know, I certainly haven't prevented anybody from saying what they think about it. The only thing is said that it's the real danger to other people's lives -
SSAA There is no evidence for that. There is simply no evidence, and this is where the debate always bogs down because people operating from a fixed position will not look. Now, yes, I can give you figures from America...
EB What do you think will happen? -
SSAA Ten per 100,000 people in America get killed by... murdered. In Vermont, where gun access is completely open, there is no registration, no licensing and it's legal to carry a loaded firearm in the street, they have round about half the murder rate of Victoria and NSW...
EB If you want to send all those sort of figures and we can look at them compared to the stuff that we have...
SSAA Well, that's a good idea, but just let me say that to you again, I'll finish that sentence. In some parts of America, rural white America, the murder rate is lower than it is here, and in ghettos or inner urban areas the black population is carrying out murders at about around 220 per 100,000; it's an extraordinary figure and it completely distorts people's view of America..... (tape runs out)
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