Interview with Western Sydney University’s Dr Michael Kennedy regarding firearms
ABC Illawara 27/08/2009 9.15am
Steve Parsons: One of the big local news stories of the day is this one, this operation in the Illawarra where police confiscated a number of firearms including the WW2 bren light machine gun(*) and a home made machine gun in this alleged gun trafficking operation in the Illawarra. Without particularly concentrating on that one, let’s look at the issue Australia-wide. How easy is it to actually buy an illegal firearm and what sort of person does buy a firearm? Dr Michael Kennedy is from the policing program at the University of Western Sydney and is a former detective. Good morning Dr Kennedy.
Michael Kennedy: Just call me Michael.
Steve Parsons: [Laughs] All right, Michael. Just call me Michael. Handguns, is that really what we’re talking about, is that the most common one, the most popular one?
Michael Kennedy: Well, you know there’s two groups of people, you’ve got gun enthusiasts that - whenever you’ve got enthusiasts you’ve got a legitimate market, you ‘ve got one where they’ve got a private stash if you like.
Steve Parsons: What, a private, illegal stash?
Michael Kennedy: Yeah, sometimes they would, you know. But I don’t think they’re looking at firearms in terms of the enthusiasts are looking at firearms in terms of something they can use illegally. It’s just one of those, collecting, you know one of those collecting things. And I think then you’ve got the criminal side of things and sometimes they overlap, not always but sometimes they can overlap.
Steve Parsons: All right, the amnesties over the years, the buybacks and the crackdowns on guns, I mean, there are those that are saying they’ve been successful, some would disagree. But I think we’d all agree that it really hasn’t had too much effect on the black market, has it?
Michael Kennedy: Well, it’s had an effect on the black market in terms, guns aren’t as accessible as they used to be, but, you know, it’s like everything, if you’ve got the right money and you’ve got the right contacts, and you’re prepared to associate with the people that have access to these things then you can sort of get whatever you want, whether it’s guns or whether it isn’t. But the majority of people and not just - I am not just talking about 51 per cent, by and large, the majority of people in Australia have come to grips with the new thought - thinking on firearms. Most people don’t want access to them, you know.
Steve Parsons: But when something becomes hard to get, like firearms et cetera, in some sectors the demand goes up and I guess the price goes up as well. Supply and demand?
Michael Kennedy: Well, it depends what it is. It is very much a market spa... well anything is very much a market-based situation. You know there’s always someone who’s prepared to take the risks to provide things if people are prepared to pay the right amount of money to buy them. But in this instance, you know, the people who are providing say, firearms, say pistols for example, they wouldn’t just be involved in firearms, it’s quite likely they’re involved in a range of organised crime activity and so people who involve themselves with them, you’re dealing with people that - there’s no certainty in dealing with them. You know, you can’t go to the police and complain if they rip you off or you can’t go to the ombudsman if they don’t play by the rules. You know, people don’t go to university and do gangster 101, sort of, subjects you know.
Steve Parsons: [Laughs] Michael where do they come form in the first place, handguns? Are they mainly stolen, are they imported?
Michael Kennedy: Well, look, there’s a whole range of areas. What I am - earlier this year I was lucky enough to be at a conference overseas and, of course, one of the big concerns is that within the mobile European community, especially from the old Russia, there’s a whole range of activity that’s taking place in countries that have access to firearm.
Apparently there’s a lot of firearm activity from out of Israel, the Middle East and of course the communities that you’re talking about have communities all over the world and so there’s all sorts of access through those ways and of course because of the way, during the cold war era, you know, you’d have third world countries that were either propped up by the United States or propped up by the Iron Curtain countries. You could almost tell their access to firearms by whether the soldiers had an ArmaLite or whether they had an AK47. And along with that comes smaller firearm access as well.
Steve Parsons: I suppose one of the scariest things for people who’ve - I know there was a raid in county Victoria a little while ago but things like, not just handguns and rifles but cannons and machine guns and night vision goggles, et cetera that...
Michael Kennedy: Well, yeah. Look I wouldn’t be too concerned about a home-made machine gun and a bren gun because they’re very much, you know, they’re - you’re talking about old - I mean, if they’re still functional, they are of a concern. But no, really, no self-respecting crook would be wanting access to those...
Steve Parsons: Okay. What they really want is, what 357 magnums, it’s...
Michael Kennedy: Not even that. You’re a bit behind the times there, that’s Dirty Harry stuff. You know, what they’re looking at is glocks, fully automatic glocks, automatic pistols are very reliable. You’re talking about uzis(*), you’re talking about stuff like the night-vision goggles. That’s all the scary stuff.
Steve Parsons: Okay because the glocks are the nine millimetre, they’re the ones that the police use and they’re lightweight too.
Michael Kennedy: Well, I don’t think they’re nine millimetres. They’re smaller than that, they’re lightweight. Used to be most automatic pistols, you’d probably get the nine, you’d be able to fit nine bullets in it. I think glocks have about 13 to 14 in them. That whole area that if you’re a serious gangster you’re going to want all the most up to date stuff. It’s not to say that other firearms aren’t problematic because they are, in the wrong hands. I mean, even a flintlock’s problematic in the wrong hands.
Steve Parsons: What about the claim, Michael, that guns have become almost like an accessory, like a status symbol, not something that you’re going to use but, you know, something that criminals carry. It’s like, well, he carries a gun.
Michael Kennedy: Oh I - look, I - there’s always - amongst organised crime groups, you know, organised crime is very tribal and usually the boss of the group is there because he’s the most violent person. Needless to say, there’s going to be a use for firearms there but if I were in the public, I wouldn’t be -I mean, in a Liberal democracy, if we want levels of certainty to guarantee that firearms are reduced to a level that they’re almost not available, then what we’ve also got to put up with is all of our other freedoms are going to be taken away, freedom of speech, freedom of you on the radio to even talk about it.
Steve Parsons: Hmm. All right Michael.
Michael Kennedy: That’s what we’ve got to balance it with, the - we can’t - in a Liberal democracy we can’t demand levels of certainty that are impossible to guarantee without doing away a whole range of our other rights.
Steve Parsons: Good on you. Thanks, Michael, thanks or your time, much appreciated.
Michael Kennedy: You’re very, very welcome. Bye bye.
Steve Parsons: Dr Michael Kennedy from the Policing Program at the University of Western Sydney. Have you ever been offered a gun, how easy is it to buy a gun, an illegal firearm. 1300 973 300, completely anonymous.
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